The author, the whistleblower and the movie star

The Moscow Un-Summit wasnt a formal interview. Nor was it a cloak-and-dagger underground rendezvous. The upshot is that John Cusack, Daniel Ellsberg( who leaked the Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam war) and I didnt get the cautious, diplomatic, regulation Edward Snowden. The downshot( that isnt a word, I know) is that the jokes, the witticism and repartee that took place in Room 1001 cannot be reproduction. The Un-Summit cannot be written about in the detail that it deserves. Yet it definitely cannot not be written about. Because it did happen. And because the world is a millipede that inches forward on millions of real dialogues. And this, certainly, was a real one.

What mattered, perhaps even more than what was said, was the spirit in the room. There was Edward Snowden who, after 9/ 11, was in his own words straight up singing highly of Bush and signing up for the Iraq war. And there were those of us who, after 9/11, had been straight up doing exactly the opposite. It was a little late for this conversation, of course. Iraq has been all but destroyed. And now the map of what is so condescendingly “ve called the” Countries of the middle east is being brutally redrawn( yet again ). But still, there we were, all of us, talking to each other in a bizarre hotel in Russia. Bizarre it certainly was.

The opulent foyer of the Moscow Ritz-Carlton was teeming with drunk millionaires, high on new money, and gorgeous, high-stepping young woman, half peasant, half supermodel, draped on the arms of toady humen gazelles on their route to fame and fortune, paying their dues to the satyrs who would get them there. In the hallways, you passed serious fistfights, loud singing and quiet, liveried waiters wheeling trolleys with towers of food and silverware in and out of rooms. In Room 1001 we were so close to the Kremlin that if you put your hand out of the window, you could nearly touch it. It was snowing outside. We were deep into the Russian winter never credited enough for its part in the second world war. Edward Snowden was much smaller than I thought hed be. Small, lithe, neat, like a house cat. He greeted Dan ecstatically and us warmly. I know why youre here, he said to me, smiling. Why? To radicalise me. I laughed.

We settled down on various perches, stools, chairs and Johns bed. Dan and Ed were so pleased to meet each other, and had so much to say to each other, that it felt a little impolite to intrude on them. At periods they transgressed into some kind of arcane code language: I jumped from nobody on the street, straight to TSSCI. No, because, again, this isnt DS at all, this is NSA. At CIA, its called COMO. Its kind of a similar role, but is it under support? PRISEC or PRIVAC? They start out with the TALENT KEYHOLE thing. Everyone then get read into TS, SI, TK, and GAMM-AG clearance … Nobody knows what it is

It took a while before I felt it was all right to interrupt them. Snowdens disarming answer to my topic about being photographed cradling the American flag was to roll his eyes and tell: Oh, human. I dont know. Somebody handed me a flag, they took a scene. And when I asked him why he signed up for the Iraq war, when millions of people all over the world were marching against it, he replied, equally disarmingly: I fell for the propaganda.

Dan talked at some duration about how it would be unusual for US citizens who joined the Pentagon and the National Security Agency to have read much literature on US exceptionalism and its history of war.( And once they joined, it was unlikely to be a subject that interested them .) He and Ed had watched it play out live, in real day, and were frightened enough to stake their lives and their liberty when they decided to be whistleblowers. What the two of them clearly had in common was a strong, nearly corporeal sense of moral righteousness of right and wrong.

A sense of righteousness that was obviously at work not just when they decided to blow the whistle on what they thought to be morally unacceptable, but also when they signed up for their jobs Dan to save his country from communism, Ed to save it from Islamist terrorism. What they did when they grew disillusioned was so electrifying, so dramatic, that they have come to be identified by that single act of moral courage.

Edward Snowden and Arundhati Roy. Photo: Politenes of John Cusack

I asked Ed Snowden what he thought about Washingtons ability to destroy countries and its inability to win a war( despite mass surveillance ). I think the issues to was phrased quite rudely something like, When was the last time the United States won a war? We spoke about whether the economic sanctions and subsequent intrusion of Iraq could be accurately called genocide. We talked about how the CIA knew and was preparing for the fact that the world was heading to a place of not only inter-country war but of intra-country war, in which mass surveillance would be necessary to control populations. And about how armies were being was transformed into police force to administer countries they have invaded and occupied, while the security forces even in places such as India and Pakistan and Ferguson, Missouri, in the United States were being trained to behave like armies to appease internal insurrections.

Ed spoke at some duration about surveillance. And here I quote him, because hes said this often before: If we do nothing, we sort of sleepwalk into a total surveillance nation where we have both a super-state that has unlimited capacity to apply force with an unlimited ability to know( about the person or persons it is targeting) and thats a very dangerous combining. Thats the dark future. The fact that they know everything about us and we know nothing about them because they are secret, they are privileged, and they are a separate class the elite class, the political class, the resource class we dont know where they live, we dont know what they do, we dont know who their friends are. They have the ability to know all that about us. This is the direction of the future, but I think there are changing potentials in this.

I asked Ed whether the NSA was just feigning aggravation at his revelations, but might actually be secretly pleased to see being known as the All Seeing, All Knowing Agency because that would help to keep people fearful, off-balance, always appearing over their shoulders and easy to manage. Dan spoke about how even in the US, a police state was only another 9/11 away: We are not in a police state now , not yet. Im talking about what may come. I realise I shouldnt set it that way White, middle-class, trained people like myself are not living in a police state Black, poor people are living in a police state. The repression starts with the semi-white, the Middle Easterners, including anybody who is allied with them, and goes on from there One more 9/11, and then I believe we will have hundreds of thousands of detentions. Middle Easterners and Muslims will be put in detention camps or deported. After 9/11, we had thousands of people arrested without charges But Im talking about the future. Im talking the level of the Japanese in the second world war Im talking of hundreds of thousands in camps or deported. I think the surveillance is very relevant to that. They will know who to put away the data is already collected.( When he said this, I did wonder, though I did not ask how different would things have been if Snowden had not been white ?)

We “was talkin about a” war and avarice, about terrorism, and what an accurate definition of it would be. We spoke about countries, flags and the meaning of patriotism. We talked about public opinion and the concept of public morality and how fickle it could be, and how easily manipulated. It wasnt a Q& A type of conversation. We were an incongruous meet. Ole von UexkA1/ 4ll from the Right Livelihood Foundation in Sweden, myself and three troublesome Americans. John Cusack, who guessed up and organised this whole disruptive enterprise, comes from a fine tradition, too of musicians, writers, performers, athletes who have refused to buy the bullshit, however beautifully it was packaged.

What will become of Edward Snowden? Will he ever be able to return to the US? His opportunities dont look good. The American government the Deep State, as well as both the major political parties wants to punish him for the enormous damage he has inflicted, in their perception, on the security establishment.( Its got Chelsea Manning and the other whistleblowers where it wants them .) If it does not manage to kill or incarcerate Snowden, it must use everything in its power to limit the damage hes done and continues to do. One of those routes is to try to contain, co-opt and usher the debate around whistleblowing in a direction that suits it. And it has, to some extent, managed to do that.

In the Public Security v Mass Surveillance debate that is taking place in the establishment western media, the Object of Love is America. America and her actions. Are they moral or immoral? Are they right or wrong? Are the whistleblowers American patriots or American traitors? Within this constricted matrix of morality, other countries, other cultures, other dialogues even if they are the victims of US wars usually appear only as witnesses in the main trial. They bolster either the outrage of the prosecution or the indignation of the defence.

The trial, when it is conducted on these terms, serves to reinforce the idea that there can be a moderate, moral superpower. Are we not witnessing it in action? Its sorrow? Its guilt? Its self-correcting mechanisms? Its watchdog media? Its activists who will not stand for ordinary( innocent) American citizens being spied on by their own government? In these debates that appear to be fierce and intelligent, words such as public and security and terrorism are hurled around, but they remain, as always, loosely defined and are utilized more often than not in the way the US state would like them to be used.

It is shocking that Barack Obama approved a kill listing with 20 names on it. Or is it? What sort of listing do the millions of people who have been killed in all the US wars belong on, if not a kill listing? In all of this, Snowden, in exile, has to remain strategic and tactical. Hes in the impossible position of having to negotiate the terms of his amnesty/ trial with the very institutions in the US that feel betrayed by him, and the terms of his domicile in Russia with that Great Humanitarian, Vladimir Putin. So the superpowers have the Truth-teller in a position where he now has to be extremely careful about how he uses the spotlight he has earned and what he tells publicly.

Even so, quite apart from what cannot be said, the conversation around whistleblowing is a thrilling one its Realpolitik busy, important and full of legalese. It has spies and spy-hunters, escapades, secrets and secret-leakers. Its a very adult and assimilating universe of its own. However, if it becomes, as it sometimes threatens to, a substitute for broader, more radical political thinking, then the conversation that Daniel Berrigan, Jesuit priest, poet and war resister( contemporary of Daniel Ellsberg ), wanted to have when he told, Every nation-state tends towards the imperial that is the point becomes a little inconvenient.

I was glad to see that when Snowden built his debut on Twitter( and chalked up half a million followers in half a second ), he told, I used to work for the governmental forces. Now I work for the public. Implicit in that sentence is the belief that the government does not work for the public. Thats the beginning of a subversive and inconvenient dialogue. By the governmental forces, of course, he entails the American government, his former employer. But who does he entail by the public? The US public? Which part of the US public? Hell have to decide as he goes along. In republics, the line between an elected government and the public is never all that clear. The upper-class is usually fused with the governmental forces fairly seamlessly. Viewed from an international view, if there really is such a thing as the US public, its a very privileged public indeed. The only public I know is a maddeningly tricky labyrinth.

Oddly, when I think back on the session in the Moscow Ritz-Carlton, the memory that flashes up first in my intellect is an image of Daniel Ellsberg. Dan, after all those hours of talking, lying back on the bed, Christlike, with his arms flung open, sobbing for what the United States has turned into a country whose best people must either going to see prison or into exile. I was moved by his tears but troubled, too because they were the tears of a human who has ensure the machine up close. A human who was once on a first-name basis with the people who controlled it and who coldly contemplated the idea of annihilating life on Earth. A human who risked everything to blow the whistle on them. Dan knows all the arguments, For as well as Against. He often uses the word imperialism to describe US history and foreign policy. He knows now, 40 years after he made the Pentagon Papers populace, that even though those particular people have gone, the machine holds on turning.

Roy with( from left) Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden and John Cusack. Photo: Politenes of John Cusack

Daniel Ellsbergs tears built me think about love, about loss, about dreams and, the majority of members of all, about failure. What sort of love is this love that we have for countries? What sort of country is it that will ever live up to our dreams? What sort of dreams were these that have been broken? Isnt the greatness of great nations immediately proportionate to their ability to be ruthless, genocidal? Doesnt the height of a countrys success usually also mark the depths of its moral failure? And what about our failure? Writers, artists, radicals, anti-nationals, mavericks, malcontents what of the failure of our imaginations? What of our failure to replace the idea of flags and countries with a less lethal Object of Love? Human beings seem unable to live without war, but they are also unable to live without love. So the issues to is, what shall we love?

Writing this at a time when refugees are inundating into Europe the result of decades of US and European foreign policy in the Countries of the middle east attains me wonder: who is a refugee? Is Edward Snowden the status of refugees? Surely, he is. Because of what he did, he cannot return to the place he believes of as his country( although he can continue to live where he is most comfortable inside the internet ). The refugees fleeing from wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria to Europe are refugees of the Lifestyle Wars. But the thousands of people in countries such as India who are being incarcerated and killed by those same Lifestyle Wars, the millions who are being driven off their lands and farms, exiled from everything they have ever known its own language, their history, the landscape that formed them are not. As long as their sadnes is contained within the arbitrarily drawn borders of their own country, they are not considered refugees. But they are refugees. And certainly, in terms of numbers, such people are the great majority in the world today. Regrettably, in imaginations that are locked down into a grid of countries and borders, in minds the hell is shrink-wrapped in flags, they dont make the cut.

Perhaps the best-known refugee of the Lifestyle Wars is Julian Assange, the founder and editor of WikiLeaks, who is currently serving his fourth year as a fugitive-guest in a room in the Ecuadorian embassy in London. Until lately, the police were stationed in a small foyer just outside the front doorway. There were snipers on the roof, with orders to arrest him, shoot him, drag him out if he so much as set a toe out of the door, which for all legal purposes is an international border. The Ecuadorian embassy is situated across the street from Harrods, the worlds most well known department store.

The day we met Julian, Harrods was sucking in and spewing out frenzied Christmas shoppers in their hundreds, or perhaps even thousands. In the middle of that tony London high street, the smell of opulence and excess met the smell of incarceration and the Free Worlds fear of free speech.( They shook hands and agreed never to be friends .) On the day( actually the night) we met Julian, we were not allowed by security to take telephones, cameras or any recording devices into the room. So that dialogue also remains off the record.

Despite the odds stacked against its founder-editor, WikiLeaks continues its work, as cool and insouciant as ever. Most lately it has offered an awarding of $100,000 for anybody who can provide smoking gun documents about the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership( TTIP ), a free trade agreement between Europe and the United States that aims to give multinational corporations the power to sue sovereign governments that do things that adversely impact corporate profits. Criminal acts could include governments increasing employees minimum wages , not ensure to be cracking down on terrorist villagers who impede the work of mining companies, or, tell, having the temerity to turn down Monsantos offer of genetically modified corporate-patented seeds. TTIP is just another weapon like intrusive surveillance or depleted uranium, to be used in the Lifestyle Wars.

Looking at Julian Assange sitting across the table from me, pale and worn, without having had five minutes of sunshine on his scalp for 900 days, but still refusing to disappear or capitulate the route his foes would like him to, I smiled at the idea that nobody thinks of him as an Australian hero or an Australian traitor. To his foes, Assange has betrayed much more than a country. He has betrayed the ideology of the ruling powers. For this, they detest him even more than they detest Edward Snowden. And thats telling a lot.

Were told, often enough, that as a species we are poised on the edge of the abyss. Its possible that our puffed-up, prideful intelligence has outperformed our instinct for survival and the road back to safety has already been washed away. In which suit theres nothing much to be done. If there is something to be done, then one thing is for sure: the individuals who created their own problems will not be the ones who come up with a solution. Encrypting our emails will assist, but not very much. Recalibrating our understanding of what love entails, what happiness means and, yes, what countries entail might. Recalibrating our priorities might.

An old-growth forest, a mountain range or a river valley is more important and certainly more lovable than different countries will ever be. I could weep for a river valley, and I have. But for a country? Oh, human, I dont know

A longer version of such articles, by John Cusack and Arundhati Roy, appears in Outlookmagazine. Arundhati Roy is the author of the Booker prizewinning novel The God Of Small Things. Her most recent non-fiction work is Capitalism: A Ghost Story.

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